Fiction writing workshops

I hope it will be open to all. Waiting for the first edition to start!

I am in favor of concept suggested by Ghazala and Diwakar. I want to keep it minimalist and get going with it. But if CS has enthu to create a blog and everyone feels its a good idea and it will be nicer to receive critical comments away from one's blog, then we need to decide.

CS does have a point there though. Though I and CS may sugercoat our comments, the learning comes from everyone and we can't force everyone to sugar coat comments. I personally would be willing to take harsh comments on my blog as long as it is not a personal attack. Others have to take a call. CS can take final decision which way to go. Once we are decided on that I will post the plot.

If we are to get going by the weekend in terms of TF putting up the plot, then a call needs to be taken asap. So, are all potential participants agreed on

1. A blog specifically for this purpose.

2. TF puts up the first post on the blog - the plotline that has to be written.

3. Each participant writes his take, mails it to me so I can post it on the blog.  A brief intro of the author would also be in order. (If agreed pls mail the post as part of the mail and not as an attachment. I am not uptodate with my software and may be unable to open some attachments!)

4. Participants may also post their take on their blog. Of course, credit to the plotline (in this case TF) and link to this blog to be provided.

5. Last entry - 2 weeks from the time TF puts up the plotline. TF will specify the date.

fine !!

My two cents. As blog-a-ton puts it, if its your post, it looks good on your blog. That would also help with avoiding any copyright issues. We can definitely put the link in the common blog, but somehow I feel the content should stay on your own blog.

That is a point of view, Deepa! If you want to go the link way that is fine by me. But I would not see the point in creating a blog then. Generally, when someone clicks on a link and goes to a blog to read a post, he comments on the post and does not come back to the blog from where the link was clicked.

Since the whole point about a common blog was about the comments, if the post is not on the common blog for me there is no point in having the common blog.

As for copyright issues it is messed up anyway. Remember this time you will be writing on TF's plotline - so whose is the copyright?

I mean I am not particular about copyrights. I won't be giving away ideas I may want to work on later.

Hmm, that is true. So would every particpant's post be a separate post on the blog? That way I could maintain a link to it on my individual blog and also not have to scramble to find all critic comments related to mine.

That is the whole idea Deepa of the common blog. That each participant's post is a separate post so that comments related to that entry appears on that post. Otherwise I would have been content to keep it on the thread instead of suggesting a separate blog.

Duh me! Ok, let's get the ball rolling then!

How about having a blog with multiple authors? That saves CS the trouble of shaving posts off his mail and pasting it to the blog. Besides, what if some writer wants to use images in the post? CS can't be expected to do formatting and all.

To achieve this though, we will need to fix who all will participate. Either that, or everyone who wishes to participate will have to mail CS a request to add them as an author to the blog. They can then simply log in and post their own post.  

I also have no idea if, when using mutltiple authors, admin powers like deletion etc. can be reserved solely by the blog creator, like it is in FB groups where admin powers are with one or two people but the remaining members can still post and all.

Also needs to be checked, the maximum number of authors permitted by Blogger on a blog.

@Sandy: As far as multi-media posting goes, I think this may not be the place. I believe that published fiction is still entirely words - assuming we are not talking of graphic fiction and also assuming we are not writing long fantasy or historical fiction with maps becoming necessary.  Since this is an effort at improving our skills to write for publication in the future, I'd request everyone to stick to verbal narratives without pictorial or audio/video flourishes!

Yup, multi-author is one option but that, again, means that I will have to track who has posted what and all. After all, we are all people who, by and large, have not met each other and I will not be in a position to verify bonafides when new people wish to join in.  So, rather than find myself taking my eyes off for a couple of days and finding a few posts on Viagra, I will choose to cut and paste posts.

Anyway, we can keep polishing the effort going forth. Let us get this edition going on the basis suggested. Later on, we can modify as we find appropriate. (That means that, even if all you guys prefer allowing multi-media entries, I request you to stick to verbal narratives this time!)

Absolutely agree with CS. No multi media here. Other platforms including indi contests provide ample opportunity to explore talent in use of multi-media. Here we are exploring the power of words. So we will use only words. 

I am not a fan of multi-media posting anyway. I have to trudge through photographs when I would rather write a paragraph describing the scene. I am all for non-multimedia text-only posts.

Copy Paste it is then.

Blogspot has a 100 author limit for a multi author blog I blv. 

The point is generic TF! The next one to offer a post for the competition may not be as generous. It is best that it is known upfront.

*The next one to offer a plot..*

I'm not really a fiction writter, but here is a chance for me to improve, and I won't step back. Count me IN! 

Dunno if this is an official registration form or anything...

But yeah, will give it a shot whenever it starts.

I think the response has been overwhelming. Suresh has gone ahead and created website and I have made the draft of the first plot as well. It will be opened to public before this weekend hopefully. The next thing is about the judging. My take is that both judges individually and independently rank all the entries and the net rank of each entry will be the average of the two ranks. Everyone would get an individual feedback from the judges and hopefully from many fellow participants. The top 3 rankers can take over as judges for next episode. They can either design the entire format for next round or take help from me/CS for the same. Even this round I would have liked to have 3 judges. But since only 2 of us came up with the idea, I thinkthis time it will be just the 2 of us.

Some rationale will be given on each judge's basis for the ranking. However judging literature is very subjective and person dependent. There is no absolute right or wrong. So it would be appreciated if judges' decisions are not questioned as this may intimidate the next set of judges. Different judges will have different perspective and I am sure the different perspectives will help one improve writing skills. As we keep re-iterating, winning here is meaningless. True winning is being able to produce best selling or literary  award winning stories based on skills learnt here.

Views are welcome on which one is better - rank or score. Rank is better as it is subjective and between two, judge can decide if they like A or B. But disadvantage is that someone will get last rank. Maybe it can be avoided by ranking only top 50%. Another disadvantage is that if there is vast difference between say rank 1 and rank 2 in terms of quality the difference won't be reflected.

The other option is of course to give a score. Attaching a number is a bit arbitrary. But usually scores are what are given in most places. And also last person may not feel too bad if his score is like 6.5 and top score is 8.5 as difference is only 2.0. But with 2-3 judges there will be lot of ties and may be difficult to distinguisg top 3.  

My take is that people be allowed to have the entries on their blog as well and we don't bother much about how credits are given. Yes, normal practice is to give link to the contest blog and acknowledge the person who has given the plot. But that should be no constraint on anyone. 

We don't want to build traffic for the contest blog. We only want it to be exclusively for the members. At least thats my idea as of now.

And I think as far as plagiarism goes, I think we would restrict ourselves to taking down any post if a specific complaint comes from someone with proof. Beyond that we will not concern ourselves with plagiarism.

As far as copying of ideas, receiving help from someone else or re-using an old post is concerned, these things are difficult to prove. Anyone indulging in any of these are only undermining their own learning process. We do not want entertain any complaints, carry out any investigations or take actions on these issues. The purpose of this exercise is learning and not policing. 

Let me give my thinking on why I wanted the link to the contest post.  If someone reads you, for example, and not me, I will have a chance of gettng his criticism only if he comes to know of the contest blog and comes over to read the others there. Without the link, we may end up with only the contestants coming over to the blog and the criticisms will all be within the circle and provided we find time to read and criticise. Else it will be only the judges!!

The idea anout the link to the contest blog was only to ensure a cross-pollination of critics. As for crediting the original giver of the plot etc., it is only common decency to do so and I'd rather stick to normal blogging ethics here.

I am in too, judge thing is looking dicey, i propose one or two learned critiqes fr the job. 

let the ball roll on. 

i think publishing one post at two places will be degrading on google rank.

This is the best we could do on judges, PL. Learned crtiques won't take time off every month to read 30-40 posts of ameteur bloggers unless we pay them money. This is everyone's initiative and does not belong to me and CS. So if it works well, we can consider pooling money and hiring learned critiques. Till then you got to make do with me and CS for first editions and the winners of past editions from then on.

@ PL - agree regarding search traffic. My suggestion is to make the common blog invisible to crawlers. We are not so concerned about traffic there and members are anyway going to come through referrals by existing members and no useful traffic is going to come from google. But I leave final decision to CS.

well, that's new thing I learnt.

I certainly think it is dicey for the judges! I am only hoping that people give me credit for honesty even if not for ability :)

@TF: All such technical stuff like making blog invisible to crawlers, I leave to you guys! I have no objection but hvnt the scantest idea bt how do go about doing it :)

yes, making the blog invisible to search engines is a good idea. I am not sure if that functionality is available in wordpress. In blogger, it is.

then it's great. rock on.

A lot has  been talked about judging and a lot more has been talked about this not being a contest. I suggest, instead of judging people and/or their posts, why don't you nominate the next "plot-holders" ? I know its "potato - potahto", but still. So then no feels cheated or dissapointed, because they didn't win. Not that it matters, but since this was a topic of concern, I just gave my suggestion. 

By the way, I'm in for this too!! 

That's music to my ear, II! You have no idea how I hate the very thought of judging! But, I know where TF is coming from! First, that a good writer is probably better able to know what can be improved in another's piece! If we merely nominated people, there could be a feeling that we are just juggling the ball among friends. The same probem could exist with respect to the judging too, I agree, but there at least we need to assign reasons. Also, the process of judging ensures at least 2 critiques now and three later on each piece. Without that it is possible that a few of the authors could end up with no take-aways from the exercise.

Well, the nominees could be entitled to give reasons too.

And plus, there may be some of us who (like you), dread judging. Or they may not have time to go through all the posts or may have a plethora of reasons. If he or she "wins" that person is obligated to "judge" the next round, right? I feel that, that judging wont be true to it's sense and many posts could also go unread, if the judges are not in their right mindsets. 

What I feel is that the deciding post should be of the format "I nominate so-and-so because, ...." thereby distinguishing the next nominees from the others, at the same time, putting forward the fact that it is their own opinion and the future nominees are in no way better than the rest. 

Again, just a suggestion.

Actually, I do not agree here. If the point is in a mutual learning process, I think everyone needs to be willing to give his time every now and then to the critiquing process. Yes, the winners shall be obligated to read and critique.  I can and do understand the possibility of the timing being unfortunate sometimes but I can also conceive of the possibility that if critiquing does not become mandatory for at least the judges, you could well end up in a situation where there is no critiquing at all. Better some problems of the former sort than a total negation of the latter sort.

I think what I had more in mind was that the judges do give a critique on every contest post - certainly not the sort of skipping posts that seems to be one of your bugbears. Also, it is one thing to give views about a piece and general views about a person so nomination is not the same as judgment.

The above are my own views and not intended as any sort of diktats. It is open to all participants to give their own views.

I completely agree with you CS!! What I was talking about is the way of selection of the judges.

For eg. If you chose, say A to be the next judge. Now it becomes an obligation of A to go through every post and critique it. Now, it may or may not be possible or plausible for A to do so. And that's all I'm saying. If there was one "judge" who is dedicated enough to actually go through the posts the nominated judges have missed then it could mean something.

And I seriously didn't mean to offend. I was just saying what was on my mind.

I was certainly not offended, II! Like I said I am only putting up my point of view for consideration, that is all!!

I certainly do not see this as an endeavour TF and I are running with you people having to live by the rules. This is a collective endeavour and we are all in it to put in place the best possible system that we can!

Only, there will certainly be some obligations in a mutual learning process and if you like to know where you can improve it is also necessary that you are willing to contribute to other people's improvement as well. I just wanted to make that point.

I hope I do not sound as though I am laying down the law when I make my points. I certainly do not intend to lay down the law here or anywhere :)

We would like to get the first exercise off the ground by Friday night, so that you guys have the weekend to work on it. That means that we accept some ground rules for this edition, at least. If the following ground rules are acceptable, at least on a one time basis, I'd suggest people confirm participation latest by Friday. If there is something seriously objectionable about them please do mention them. If your objections are related to possible problems of the future, we can discuss it and refine the procedure for future editions.

1. All posts will be carried on the common blog. You are free to put up the entire post in your blog or just carry a link to the common blog.  It is obligatory to carry a link to the common blog as well as attribution of the plot-line.

2. The last entry shall be put up by 30th Sept. Judgment process complete and winners declared by 15 Oct.

3. Short introduction of author and the entry to be mailed to me in the body of the email and not as attachment. Only words, no multimedia.

4. Winning this contest (top three) would obligate the winners to (a) put up the next exercise (b) read and critique all entries on that edition and (c) rate them and select the next lot of winners.

5. Judges decision to be final.

I would not want to put up the email on a public forum. So, please confirm participation by Friday and network with me, if you have not already done so, so that I can Indimail the email to those interested only. Any changes that seem absolutely necessary for this edition needs also to be finalized by then.

Ok for some unknown reason, I can't send you an indimail. But I would love to participate.

You needed to wait till I accepted you into my network, II ! :) Anyways, it is my issue to send u the Indimail when the time comes :)

Let me give my views on some of the issues raised.

1. Judges not being able to spare time that month - Since there is going to be a ranking, at least 3 from the top 5 or top 20%  whichever is bigger should be available to take up judging. The others in the top 5/ top 20%  will remain part of the pool for following month till they have been judge for at least a month. That way same person does not get judge duty too often just because he/she is winning too often also.

2. About not having any judging at all but mere participation - they degrade into mutual admiration communities. We have plenty of that already. I don't see what is the point starting one more. Because unless I rank you, I will not be forced to give a genuine comment. I can't say 'Excellent Post' and then give you a low rank, no? If I give you a low rank, I should give sufficient reasons why your post had to be ranked low.

@TF Loved the first point!! Man do you have the thinking capabilities of a genius!! :D :D

About the second point... What if the selected judge is not willing/cannot judge the next month? Is there a way of passing the judiciary duties?

@CS It's kind of ironic when you lay down the rules right after you say you hope you don't sound like the same... ;) just kidding!! :D

The only alternatives for second month would be me and CS. I don't know about CS but I definitely can't take up judge duties again next month. Let us hope next month we have 5-6 options and 3 will become available. With time, hopefully we will have a bigger pool and same person does not have to be judge more than once in 6-8 months.

Were it not for the fact I pushed you into this TF, I'd not be judging even this time :)

@II : :):) U think I did not realize that :) Only, laying down the law would mean saying "These are the rules...." and not "Hope these rules are acceptable..." :)

Will clean up the top post later. Its become very cluttered now.

Ah! TF! Maybe you should put DEADLINE : FRIDAY THE 14th in bold on that top post.

Also, the way the announcement is, people will network with you and you will need to send the Indimails. That will relieve me of a lot of work, of course, but maybe you will find it onerous in addition to doing yr ofc work :) 

Done the needful

i am in.

yo, three cheers and best wishes to all, 

I am in noticed this now only to get my story reviewed by two legends - mind-blowing to say the least !

Can we have Suresh sir's email address please to send the story?

Thanks,

mahesh

Please advise on this point - 

The last entry shall be put up by 30th Sept. Judgment process complete and winners declared by 15 Oct.

Our last date for submission is Sep-14 or Sep-30? Are we no longer emailing the fiction-pieces to Suresh Sir? The pieces will directly be published on the common blog created by Suresh Sir?

Thanks,

mahesh

Suresh will copy from e-mail and publish on blog.

Mmm! TF is legendary all right but ME???? Anyway, Mahesh, the email address shall be sent by Indimail to all participants who confirm and network with me - without networking Indimailing is impossible. Confirmation of your intent to participate is to be given by Sept. 14.

You are supposed to write a story based on a plot put up by TF.  That plot shall be put up by Sept 14 as well. Based on that plot you write your story and email to me. I shall upload it into the Common blog. The last date for accepting entries for the current round is Sept. 30.

Hope it is all clear now!!

I too would like to try it out.

I want to participate too

I am IN. :D

Im so in for this...:)